Here is an email conversation on an email list I run. It sure turned out differently than I originally figured it would.
I guess that this is no more profane than some of what I hear on TBN, just in different verbiage. Actually, at least this man is being straight forward about being profane rather than being hidden by a cloak of maliciousness. Do we take things like this as "never the less, Christ is preached"? Open for discussion.
WARNING: Contains a few words that may be objectionable to some. You were warned.
A response from a list member:
O-K----I saw it---now tell me your point.Are you saying that because TBN errors on some points that they are no better then this guy?Are you saying that using the name of Jesus is an excuse to say anything afterwards?I am truely at a loss----can you get back to me?
>>>How do we expose religeon?Do we do it by exploiting its faults or by showing truth?<<<
Actually, by BOTH. One will certainly point to the other. Considering that you don't know me, my teachings, or methodology, then perhaps you have just done the very thing with which you started out your last email. Ironic.
I also sent another reply to the same email:
I thought that the point was pretty obvious. TBN does not error on just some points, it is a different gospel. Yes, I am saying that they are no better than the heretic in the video. No, I am not saying that invoking the name of Jesus excuses anything at all. This video was abominable, as is false doctrine. The majority of "ministries" on TBN (just an example) are just as profane in their heresy as the man in the video. It is just dressed in nicer clothing, so to speak, and using nicer language.
And the reply that came back:
I dont know what to say dude.Your heading into some dangerous territory when you start passing judgement on ministries.Sure some are way off base and can be spotted a mile away.But then again none of us have perfect doctrine either.DAD responds to a broken and contrite heart most of the rest is just crap we do for ourselves.Can we really say that our crap smells better then others?I like you am a reformer.How do we expose religeon?Do we do it by exploiting its faults or by showing truth?Less sin doesnt make more Jesus but more Jesus makes for less sin.So ,sir, in short if this is how you do buisness then unsubscribe me.I see this stuff down at the local rescue mission.In the safety of my home I want to use this puter to give HIM glory.
>>>I dont know what to say dude...I like you am a reformer...In the safety of my home<<<
One thing that stands out to me is the simple fact that you are on an email list with a lot of people who tend to operate in the prophetic, hence the list name. If you have been around, operated in, or understood what this entails, then you know that prophetic people tend to see things very "cut and dry" and rarely are into the "warm fuzzies" that permeates western Christendom today. They tend to be straight up, no bull, "forget Dale Carnegie because this is the truth of the matter".
You mention passing judgment. We are told to make judgments, and in more than one isolated verse. We are told to tell the discern between good and evil. We are told to even mention those who walk disorderly by name. In the list archives, you may even find some of our early discussions and teachings on the topic. If not, I can give you a web page where I even saved the discussion, having liked the discourse and teaching.
There is no "safety" in your home if you do not discern and invite most any teaching. AND if you are a reformer, then you will know everything I just said is truth. Oddly enough, when the subject of reformation comes up, people often look back to Luther. It seems to me that Luther nailed a bunch of writing (if I was sure that the plural of thesis was theses, I would have used that word) that dealt explicitly with error and the exposing of religion. Was he wrong? Did he think "that [his] crap smells better then others"?
Just food for thought. Dealing with issues that divide to the quick are not pleasant and are not for the squeamish.
And his response:
The prophetic sir, is different in the new testiment compared to the old.In the new its for edification,comfort and exortation---1 cor 14 vs 3.In eph 4 vs 11 the prophets and others work for unity.Its plain to see that you are not informed on the differences between a prophet and a seer.Be very careful sir.Seers tend to be bitter and condemning thus chasing more people away from the gospel then they save from sinning.Also a prophet who does not take time to self examine is a loose canon.Its obvious you dont know me either nor my works but I am not going to get into a bragging contest with you.I will just stand on HIS word.Please unsubscribe me from your group.In the future I will pray that HE give you more then your asking for---blessings
I then wrote:
I hear this same erroneous argument made often. It is just plain error that all prophecy (note the context of the verses you quote refer to prophecy, not people) is for is exhortation, edification, and comfort. Because a message may be perceived as "negative" it is dismissed as not being any of the three? That is the big lie that has been forced on the church. Does not a "negative" message exhort? What is exhortation? It is not being a cheerleader, it is imploring one to do something.
Yes, I am FULLY informed in the difference, having walked it for years. Your perspective concerning unity is a problem, as evidenced by what you just wrote. Sorry, but Jesus did NOT come to bring unity. He came to bring a sword. He came to divide. He said so himself. If you want to hang with the "touchy feely pillow prophet" crowd, that is your prerogative. Enjoy having your ears tickled.
As to your assertion that you will stand on "His word" in your angry retort, I would encourage you to do so. Just don't pick and choose what parts you will stand on and ignore others. See next paragraph for more. If is the goodness of God that brings men to repentance, but we are ALSO told to behold the goodness AND the severity of God. We are told to label false prophets. We are told to earnestly contend for the faith. If you wish to ignore those things, fine. That is your CHOICE. Those who choose to take the entire counsel are not anathema, as your comments seem to indicate.
As to your assertion "Seers tend to be bitter and condemning thus chasing more people away from the gospel then they save from sinning", I will only say the following. On this list, I am not talking to those who need to hear the gospel; they have already heard it. This is where the topic was discussed, not with "the world". Ergo, it is not an issue of whether anyone is "chasing more people away form the gospel". There is a difference, of which I am acutely aware. This is not a list for evangelism. If it were, it would bear a different name. Note, too, that the context of the scripture you referenced, 1 Cor. 14 speaks towards the gift of the Spirit that is prophecy, and does not speak to the ministry gift of the prophet. To take the 1 Cor. 14 and extrapolate it to the Eph 4 ministry gifts is simply a misunderstanding of the two. Yes, there is a difference. Note in the Eph. 4 citation that he gave SOME whereas in 1 Cor 12 (the same context as chapter 14) says that the manifestation of the Spirit is given to ALL men. The Eph. 4:8 "doma" is an actual gift that is given to the Body through other men and the I Cor 12 (the word gifts not in the original) spirituals are for everyone.
I believe fully that all should operate in the spirituals, as described in 1 Cor. They are not, however, the same as those specific doma gifts listed in Ephesians. Do not confuse the two. On the flip side, however, is the admonition that I have taught for years. Having a prophetic perspective means that you will see things that others do not necessarily see or know. That, however, does not excuse bad behavior. I have seen it too many times where people who give an occasional attempt to flow in the gifting of a prophet, usually to the detriment of those around him. I have also seen those who do flow in the prophetic doma gift choose to remain immature and often exhibit bad behavior with the excuse of the prophetic. One thing I do know is that those who truly have a doma anointing see things sharply, call things as they are, and know when to be gentle (or not) as the case may be.
You stated "Its obvious you dont know me either nor my works but I am not going to get into a bragging contest with you", to which I say the SAME. You don't know me, but you are all peeved over one topic, where I shared something for thought, you didn't get it, and did the very thing you said I did. Hhhhhmmm. You proceed to go off about not communicating the gospel properly, you accuse me of not knowing the difference between NT and OT prophets, you basically accused me of being a loose cannon lacking self examination, and falsely confine the definition of prophecy to a narrow descriptor (which modifies what it does, not what it is or its form. The form it takes may not be to your liking, yet it will still DO the very thing written. NOWHERE does it say that prophecy MUST do all three in order to be valid. That lie must be dispelled so that people will not fall into the trap of accepting false prophecies that tickle the ears.)
You are correct that I do not know you. All I know is the attitude and words you have thrown onto the list. The corollary is that you don't know me. Yet you have chosen the aforementioned criticisms and allegations.
No further response yet. I take note that the original question that was posed has yet to be addressed, as are other key points in my emails. The question was:
Do we take things like this as "never the less, Christ is preached"? Open for discussion.